The impact of narcissistic parents on their children is what Oliver Callan wants to discuss with psychotherapists Helen Villiers and Katie McKenna.

Helen and Katie have just published a new book called You're Not the Problem and Oliver suggests that after hearing about physical and sexual abuse over the last number of decades, emotional abuse and narcissism are new.

Helen says that’s likely true in the wider world, but not to people working in mental health – emotional abuse has always been identified among patients there:

"The thing to recognise is that emotional abuse is the cornerstone of all abuse. So, physical and sexual abuse can’t exist without emotional abuse because say for example I went on a date and on that date someone, on the first date, they punched me in the face. I’m going to report that person to the police. I’m never going to see them again."

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On the other hand, Helen continues her example, if she’s on the twentieth date and she’s been love bombed and trauma bonded and her date punches her in the face, she may find a way to justify it or find a way to excuse it:

"And that’s what emotional abuse does, it creates an environment where all the other abuses can exist, but on its own can be a thing too."

But what exactly is narcissism? It has five main traits: grandiosity, entitlement, exploitation, motivational empathy and impaired self-awareness. Both authors gave a rundown of what each trait entails, with Katie taking the first one:

"Grandiosity would be the Big I Am – they would be showboating, you know, you can recognise them, they’re better than everyone else and more with the covert or the more insidious, is even if, you know, somebody has a pain in their head, the grandiosity trait is, well, my pain in my head is worse than yours."

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In other words, there’s no space for another person in the life of the person with the grandiosity trait. They are the sun and everything else revolves around them. Next up, Helen explains entitlement:

"Well, entitlement is that, 'I want it, so I’ll get it and I’ll have it'. And there’s a thing that we have to remember – these can be healthy. So we can have these traits healthily, but it’s where they’re toxic and they’re hurting people, so the entitlement trait is a really good example of that."

An example of toxic entitlement is where someone sees themselves as worthy of a promotion and doesn’t care who they have to climb over or hurt to get it. The healthy form, conversely, sees themselves as worthy because they work hard and are good at their job and are aiming to earn the promotion.

Katie says that exploitation in the parent-child relationship is hard for people to recognise because the children are brought up with it and think that it’s normal:

"What we would see with exploitation in the parent- child relationship is where the child would be encouraged and conditioned to go out to work early so that the parents can take money from them."

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This form of exploitation is multi-faceted: it’s inappropriate because the child is so young, the parent puts emotional pressure on the child and exploit their child for their own personal gain.

Helen confesses that motivational empathy is her favourite trait. And she tells Oliver that one of the big misconceptions about narcissistic personality disorder or many of these behaviours that the person is devoid of empathy. But that’s not the case:

"What there is, is impaired empathy and motivational empathy specifically. So, it’s making you feel bad for either holding someone accountable. So, 'oh, I’m just the worst person ever. I shouldn’t be like your partner.’ Or, ‘I’m the worst mother in the world,’ or, yeah, it’s making you feel bad for calling them out and making you do things against your will because you feel obliged. Fear, obligation and guilt."

The narcissist likes to trigger the other person’s empathy for their own personal gain by making the other person feel bad for holding them responsible. Katie calls it guilt tripping and pulling on the heartstrings.

And, as Oliver says, to complete the full bingo card of narcissism, we have impaired self-awareness. Again, here Helen mentions the fact that there’s a common misconception that people with the disorder lack self-awareness, but that’s incorrect:

"What it actually is, is I know that if I do this behaviour, I will get this thing and I will have that need met, so I can exploit you to get that thing and I feel entitled to. But if I, if I look at my behaviour, if I want to know why I’m doing that, I can’t do that as the narcissist."

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Katie stresses that we all have narcissistic traits and a dose of healthy narcissism makes us ambitious and want to get ahead and achieve things, while unhealthy narcissism is the complete opposite. The unhealthy narcissist intends to use people and cause harm, using others to get ahead.

"They tell you that they have your best interests at heart, but they don’t. And with unhealthy narcissism, you’re never taken into consideration because it’s all about them."

It’s easy to see from that why unhealthily narcissistic parents can be so damaging to their children. You can hear Oliver’s full, really fascinating conversation with Helen and Katie by clicking above.

You’re Not the Problem: The Impact of Narcissism and Emotional Abuse and How to Heal by Helen Villiers and Katie McKenna is published by Yellow Kite.

If you have been affected by issues raised in this story, please visit: www.rte.ie/helplines.